I’m always happy to discuss the bible with anyone whose genuinely interested in thoughtful discourse. After I had commented back and forth on youtube with a guy by the name of “bsp256,” he sent me a personal message trying to clarify, he said, what I believe. We exchanged several lengthy messages. Finally he told me I was an antinomian heretic and that he doesn’t want to converse any longer. So there. (I’m sure if I start supporting the works gospel he believes he’d love to hear from me though, I’ll bet.)
There are several amusing aspects of our dialogue though. One, he says I’m antinomian and a heretic of the nature spoken of in Jude and Ephesians 5. Though he didn’t really specify, I assume he means Jude 4, which says: “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” In verse 16, Jude says: “These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.” So I guess what I take from his “rebuke” is that he has judged me as a grumbler and malcontent who follows my own sinful desires. Since he’s never met me, I’m not sure how he knows this, but I guess he has me figured out!
His own video, which is posted on youtube, has him (I assume) preaching to some poor people getting a handout. His concern was that they might be false converts. So he’s preaching on Matthew 7 and the people who say “lord, lord” but don’t get into heaven. What’s interesting in his video is that he can’t tell them what to do to make sure they don’t fall into that category! He has several theories, which basically all roll back to: they didn’t live a good enough life. Maybe they weren’t really repentant, he suggests. Here’s a helpful tip for anyone who is sharing the gospel: if you can’t tell someone what he needs to do to be saved…to know he’s saved…you should spend some more time making sure you yourself know. God is not a God of confusion, and the gospel isn’t really complicated, Paul was able to tell the jailer succinctly. Philip was able to explain it to the Ethiopian. Peter was able to lay it out several times to several audiences. None of them told the listener to “make sure you’re really repentant.” They all said, Believe on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Period.
Actually, his beef with me was my refusal to pervert the gospel to agree with him and Way of the Master that salvation requires some kind of life change–turning from sin. The antinomian heretics advocated lawlessness by believers, claiming that the grace of Christ is a license to do any wicked thing we choose. Of course, I believe nothing of the kind. The fact that our own adherence to God’s moral standards has nothing to do with salvation doesn’t mean that I don’t believe we’re supposed to adhere to God’s moral standards, nor does it mean that I think we can live a wicked lifestyle without being chastised by God. This concept is found in numerous places in the bible, as opposed to the false belief that we can qualify for salvation only if we live a good life, which is found nowhere.
The second amusing thing is found in the last exchange. He kept spouting Calvinist doctrine to support his views, while refusing to deal with the dozens of scriptures I cited which show salvation by faith alone, and not by faith (as long as you live a good life.) His defense would usually be that I “took the verses out of context,” though he’d never explain what the proper context was supposed to be. It makes sense though, because if the bible refutes good Calvinist doctrine, it must be taken out of context
Ultimately he could never explain how John 12:32 and 2 Peter 3:9 can be harmonized with the false Calvinist doctrine that God chooses who will be saved. In other words, if God draws everyone and God wants everyone to be saved, why
isn’t everyone saved? (Hint: I must be taking those verses out of context, lol.)
And, just to clarify: I’m not antinomian, nor am I a heretic. God expects everyone to obey His laws. We aren’t saved by our efforts to obey the bible, but grace isn’t a license to sin. If you’re a believer and you decide to make grace abound more by living a licentious lifestyle, you’d be wise to remember that God chastises all those he calls sons and it’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. You might want to brush up on Hebrews 10 & 12 before you use that license! If you’re born again, you still have eternal life, of course. But in this life, God will bring correction, as He said in Psalm 89:
If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules,
31if they violate my statutes
and do not keep my commandments,32then I will punish their transgression with the rod
and their iniquity with stripes,
33but I will not remove from him my steadfast love
or be false to my faithfulness.
Anyhow, here’s the entire exchange for anyone whose interested:
repentance
Hello,
Apparently there is a limit of how many comments you can leave on a video, and I’ve reached it.
Here’s a couple questions from my last comment, I think we’re getting off topic, and I’d like to understand what you’re espousing.
Even if mere intellectual belief was adequate for salvation, it’s clear that that belief leads to good deeds. Do you believe mere mental assent to a list of facts is adequate? What must someone believe about Jesus? What does is mean to believe in Jesus?
Thanks for the conversation.
Bill
*****
Re: repentance
I have some blog posts that pretty well lay out what I believe about repentance as it relates to salvation. cartersvillelawyer.wordpress.com You might check it out when you get a chance.
To answer your question, I think that believe means to “believe.” If there was some unusual meaning of the word “believe,” it would have to come from the bible and not from some logical extrapolation. In other words, I think we can take the bible at face value unless there is a compelling biblical reason to understand it differently.
Saving faith means that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, that is he is the savior. He is able and willing to pay the penalty for our sins and give us eternal life if we call on His name and rely on Him to be true to his word.
1 John 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
There are a couple of corollaries:
1. To believe he is the Christ, we must believe the bible when it says we need a savior. If we say we haven’t sinned, we’re calling God a liar according to 1 John. The bible is clear that all have sinned and the penalty for our sin is eternity in hell. If someone rejects this teaching, he is not believing on Christ as his savior because he doesn’t believe he needs one.
2. We must believe He is able to save us. Jesus blood is the only payment acceptable for our sin debt. If we believe we must supplement his payment of our debt with our own good works or our own good life, we are calling God a liar when He says “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2 Because Jesus lived a sinless life and shed his blood on our behalf, God is “just” in justifiying us by faith. Rom 3:26.
3. We must believe He is willing to save us. The bible is clear that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved. Acts 2:21. Romans 3:21-26 says:
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show Gods righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
God doesn’t play favorites. He grants the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL WHO BELIEVE.
4. We must believe that the life He gives is eternal, that is, He will never take it away. 1 Jn 5:11 says that the testimony God gives his Son is eternal life, and if we don’t believe this testimony, we call God a liar. If someone believes that he could lose his salvation because of something he does or doesn’t do, he doesn’t have his faith in Christ at all, it’s in his own life and deeds.
5. In believing that Jesus is the Christ, we believe him to the our Passover lamb and believe that he shed his blood and died for us. 1 Cor. 5:7. He rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven. These points actually tie into point number 2, because if he had not died and risen, He would be unable to save us.
In sum, saving faith is believing what the bible says about Jesus and trusting on him for salvation. Repentance, as taught by Peter in Acts 2, Paul in Acts 17 and John the Baptist in the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, means to stop trusting in ourselves or in false gods, and to put our hope in Christ. If you read Peter’s sermon in Acts 2, he is not preaching about turning from sin, he’s preaching against the Jews’ refusal to believe God, specifically their rejection of Jesus as the Christ. They must repent..have a change of mind or understanding…and believe the gospel in order to be saved. If they trust in their own righteousness, they will go to hell.
In Acts 17, Paul is preaching against the Athenians false belief that God is found in idols made of gold or silver. He says God has overlooked that ignorance for a time, but he now calls them to repent of it. He’s not talking about the ten commandments or the law, he’s talking about their beliefs.
Also, in the gospel accounts of John the Baptist, he is preaching that the messiah is coming and the people need to turn to believe in Him. John’s role was to point out the messiah, which he did. In Acts 19:4, Paul tells some of John’s disciples: “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Nowhere in the bible is eternal life conditioned on changing our lives. We are called to change, and we should try to live holy lives. But salvation is entirely the work of Christ. If we claim that we have done anything to merit salvation, we are denying the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. I live a pretty clean life…in human terms…but I am no more “worthy” to receive God’s grace than a hardened criminal guilty of murder and robbery. The measure of our own righteousness is our life compared to Christ, not our life compared to someone else.
That’s why John 4 is so instructive. Jesus told the woman at the well that living water is hers for the asking. All she had to do was know who he is and ask for it. Jesus knew the woman’s sinful life, but he had not discussed it with her yet. If her receiving the living water is conditioned on “turning from her sins,” Jesus lied to her in verse 10. Does this mean Jesus approved of or excused her sinful relationship? Of course not. But his offer of eternal life is offered as a gift, not as a reward for making changes in lifestyle.
Two other points you should consider. Jesus says in John 3:14-15: 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Since Jesus says this story is about Him, it’s worthwhile to read that account. It’s in Numbers 21. God didn’t require any kind of life change or pledge not to grumble in the future. They acknowledged their sin and asked for a way to be saved from the judgment. God provided it and all they had to do was believe and put their trust in the bronze snake.
The other point is the bible’s teaching that Jesus is our passover lamb. If you read that story in Exodus, it’s clearly talking about Christ and the plan of salvation. A key point is this: the ONLY factor that determined whether a household was spared was if they had the blood on the door. I’m sure there were some kindhearted, decent Egyptians in Egypt at that time, but without the blood, their first born was killed. I’m also sure there were some course, foul-mouthed, sexually promiscuous, wicked Israelites who were spared, not because of their good deeds, but because they believed God and applied the blood on the door. With the blood=not condemned. No blood=condemned.
This same litmus test is found in John 3:18. The only factor that determines whether a man is condemned or not is if he has believe on Jesus Christ. That verse leaves no room for a man who believes, but doesn’t make Jesus lord of his life, or believes, but doesn’t sufficiently “repent of his sins.”
I hope this helps you understand my position. I’ll be happy to answer any questions you might have. We seem to have common ground in that we both view the bible as our sole source of authority. I grew up in church and I actually would have agreed with you until 6 months ago or so when I was challenged to read the critically bible without preconceptions about what “repentance” means.
Josh
****
Hi,
It seems to me that you think believing in Jesus isn’t enough. There is a whole list of things that must be believed to really be saved, including that your sin will take you to hell. The only thing I would add is that you have to want to not do it anymore. That’s all repentance is.
1. I think this is the whole point of Way of the Master. Every man declares his own goodness (Prov 20:6), and if you’ve ever witnessed to anyone, you know that no one thinks they really deserve hell. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24), it shows us the exceeding sinfulness of sin (Romans 7:13), stops us from justifying ourselves and shows us our condition before God (Romans 3:19-20). The whole purpose of the law was to show Israel that they couldn’t keep it, and needed a Savior. That’s the same thing it does for us today, as is illustrated beautifully with the woman at the well, and repeatedly elsewhere.
2. Agreed
3. This is a new one on me. Are you saying no Calvinist will go to heaven?
4. This is a new one also. Are you saying no Arminian will go to heaven?
5. Agreed
I’m not convinced that you understand that repentance is not a work, anymore than believing. If someone is living with their girlfriend, and they repent of that, that is not a work. Repentance means agreeing with God that fornication is wrong. Then, the fruit of repentance would be moving out. No one (except cultists) say that you must produce the fruit of repentance to be saved.
If believing is not a work, neither is repentance. I’d say that both belief and repentance are granted by God, and we can take no credit for either. Even if someone wanted to say that either of them was a work, it wouldn’t matter, because they’re both given as gifts from God.
You said, “Mt 10:38-39 doesn’t say if we believe in Jesus we’ll submit to Him. It says if we don’t take up our cross, we’re not worthy to follow Him. If we don’t live for God, we’ll waste our life. But if we have believed on Christ, we have eternal life. Jn 5:24.”
In that passage, and again in Matt 16:24-28, Jesus is clearly talking about salvation. Do you really think that someone who isn’t worthy of Jesus can be a Christian and go to heaven?
Here’s everything I could find that you said about 1 John 3:6-8, “1 Jn makes many points, including:
1. Everyone who believes in Christ is born of God. 5:1
2. If we love God, we’ll obey his commandments. 5:2
3. If we say we don’t sin, we deceive ourselves and make God a liar. 1:8,10
4. We are Gods children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared 3:2
4. Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. 5:4
5.Ultimately, we will be like Jesus if we overcome the world. 3:2
6.We overcome the world if we BELIEVE in Jesus Christ. 5:5. “
“The net result of 1 John is that if we love God, we will obey his commandments and love our brothers. But, we aren’t saved by loving God, we’re saved because God loves us and gives eternal life to all who believe.”
If you have some explanation of 1 John 3:6-8 it’s not in there as far as I can tell. If you wrote something else about it that I missed, I’d love to see it, but judging from the questions that you ask about it, it seems to me that you don’t understand it or can’t reconcile it with your beliefs.
It is talking about a lifestyle of sin. True Christians sin, but they don’t live a lifestyle of sin. John leaves it between us and God to determine how often a sin must occur for it to be a lifestyle. I think it’s talking more about our attitude toward sin than how often we might commit sin. Do we want to stop because it’s a sin against God and not because we’re scared of the consequences (Godly sorrow vs. worldly sorrow, 2 Cor 7:10-11)? Do we struggle against it or just given in? I’m a child of God and I don’t “keep on sinning.”
I’m not clear on what you think happens to new believers. If someone believes everything on your list, but continues living in blatant sin, are they saved? If someone believed that but falls away later, are they forever saved?
It’s extremely clear that there is some sort of lifestyle change and turning away from sin by believers. They grow in holiness, and sin less and less. That is clearly the result of ongoing repentance, right?
Thanks,
Bill
****
I’m not sure why you’d think that I believe faith in Christ isn’t enough. I thought that was your position since you believe people must turn from sin to be saved, whereas i take the bible at face value when it says salvation is for all who believe.I was trying to answer your question about what we must believe about Jesus to be saved. The short answer is we must believe Jesus is the Christ and we must ask him to save us. That’s the gospel as presented by Jesus Christ himself in John 4. If we believe we don’t need a savior because we aren’t lost, then we can’t believe Jesus is our savior. They aren’t two things, they are two sides of the same coin.
For the same reason, we must believe he is able and willing to save us. If we don’t believe this, then how could be believe on Jesus Christ as our redeemer? Once again, this isn’t believing on Christ AND something else; its the same thing.
1 John 5:10-11 says: 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
I believe this passage when it says whoever believes God has the testimony, and the testimony is that God gave us eternal life in his Son. Life that can be lost by sinning or by a lapse in belief isn’t eternal…it’s termporary. If we believe that God didn’t give us eternal life, we are calling God a liar and haven’t believed.
Repentance, if you define it as turning from sin or changing your ways, IS a work according to the bible. Jonah 3:10 says: 10When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. The KJV translates the word deeds as “works,” interestingly enough.
So, according to Jonah 3:10, “turning from their wicked way” is “deeds” or works.
Furthermore, obeying the law is a work. Most of the ten commandments…the schoolmaster…are negative: Don’t steal, don’t murder, don’t covet, etc. So when we don’t do those things, we are obeying the law.
In Galations 3:10, Paul says: 10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
So Paul says that not abiding by the things written in the book of the law places you under a curse. So what are these works of the law? The reference is to Deut. 27:15-26. What are the things mentioned in that passage? Do not make an idol. Do not move a boundary marker. Do not sleep with animals. etc etc. The point is, these are nearly all NEGATIVE things. The works of the law would be NOT DOING THE THINGS GOD SAYS NOT TO.
Claiming that turning from sin or not sinning isn’t works is not supported by the bible. If you have some scriptural authority for that claim, I’d love to see it.
You said, “In that passage, and again in Matt 16:24-28, Jesus is clearly talking about salvation. Do you really think that someone who isn’t worthy of Jesus can be a Christian and go to heaven?”
The short answer is, yes. I’m not worthy of being saved, and I’m a pretty good person by human standards. The ONLY way I get into heaven is by taking on the righteousness of God through Christ in place of my own. Thats the true grace of God. I strive to be worthy of being a disciple, but even if I break God’s laws, he’ll punish me the the rod, but He won’t make himself a liar and break his covenant. Psalm 89.
I’m not afraid of 1 John 3. It’s a challenging book of the bible, but nothing in that book teaches sinless perfection. You seem to believe that it teaches that all true believers will only sin minimally, not live a lifestyle of sin (which you acknowledge is a subjective term, at best.) You draw grand conclusions from the first part of verse nine: “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him,” but ignore the second part OF THE SAME VERSE which says, “and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
It doesn’t say, cannot live a lifestyle of sin…it says, “cannot sin.” So which is it? Are you unable to sin now? I suspect since you’ve left yourself some wiggle room by saying you don’t life a “lifestyle” of sin, that you’ll admit that you do still sin.
I believe that John is talking about the disconnect between our spirit, which is made alive upon salvation and which cannot sin, and our flesh, which is not altered at all when we’re saved, which loves to sin.
Also, you can’t simply pull a verse here and there from 1 John to support your claim that we have to “do” something to be saved without ignoring other clear parts of the same book which say clearly that salvation is by faith..by what we believe.
1 John 5:1 says: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
vs.5: 5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
vs 10-12 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
According to 1 John 5:10-12, the determining factor as to whether we overcome the world is our faith, not what we do.
When someone is born again, he is a new creature. His spirit is literally made alive. But our flesh does not change until the resurrection of the dead. When a person is born again, he doesn’t necessarily get healed of all physical sickness. But he’s still a new creature, right?
As I pointed out before and you disregarded. We KNOW some people who are saved continue to live sinful lives. David, Saul, Lot, Peter. David and Saul did far worse things than I’m ever likely to do. So how does that square with your theory?
As to your claim that there is always a lifestyle change, it’s simply not supported by the scriptures. There SHOULD be a change, but we are not saved by our works, period. If a man can believe on Jesus Christ and not go to heaven because he hasn’t “done” something or given up something, then the bible is spouting lies.
Josh
****
You keep quoting John 3:16, and the dozens or hundreds of other verses that say simply believe in Jesus, and you’ll be saved. However, that’s not really what you believe. People must believe certain things about Jesus, and even about themselves to be saved. Catholics, Mormons, JWs and many others believe in Jesus. Why are they going to hell? Why are the people described in Matt 7:21-23 going to hell?
I agree that if you define repentance as changing your ways, repentance is a work. However, I haven’t defined it as that, no one I know defines it as that, and I’m starting to wonder if you’re just refusing to understand what I’m arguing for. I’ve done my best to accurately portray what you believe in this debate, and would appreciate the same, otherwise we’re both just wasting our time.
Repentance is simply submitting to Jesus’ lordship. I can submit every minute of my day, every thought I think and yield my entire life to Jesus right now, without even moving a muscle. I’ve also pointed out Acts 11:18, 2 Tim 2:25. If God grants repentance, how can it be a work?
Concerning Matt 10:38-39, I agree that I’m worthy only to fuel the fires of hell. However, in this context, Jesus is saying that whoever does not take up his cross and deny himself will not be saved. Whoever gives up his earthly life (by submitting their life to Jesus) will find eternal life.
Concerning 1 John 3:9, it says the same thing that the rest of the chapter says. You can’t go on sinning the same way as before. 1 John provides several ways to test yourself to make sure you’re in the faith. Your interpretation of it makes chapter 3 useless, and makes no sense.
This truly is a useless debate if you keep insisting that I say we have to do something to be saved. I’ve said repeatedly that I don’t believe that, and it shows you have a weak argument if you can’t argue against what I really believe, but you can only argue against a straw man.
I noticed that 3 of your 4 examples of those who lived sinful lives were Old Testament people. Were they born again? I’m not sure what you’re referring to with Peter. After the Holy Spirit came, did he live a life of sin? I know that he did sin, but was he unrepentant? If you’re referring to him denying Jesus, I would ask what made the difference between the disciples cowering in fear in the upper room after the crucifixion, and then going out proclaiming the gospel on the day of Pentecost?
Also, I don’t think you answered my questions about what happens to believers. Are you okay with someone coming to believe in Jesus, and then continuing on in a life of sin? Do you think they’re saved? What if someone believes in Jesus, but later becomes an atheist. Are they still saved?
Thanks,
Bill
****
I guess I don’t know what you believe. Since you said you agree with WOTM, I assumed that you agree with their false version of the gospel that says we must “turn from sin” to be saved. That’s their teaching on repentance and it’s stated plainly in several places on their website:
“The sinner should be told to repent—to confess and forsake his sins.”
“”Repent” means to have a change of mind. When the Bible tells sinners to repent, it means to change their direction, to turn from their sins.”
“How is one born again? Simply through repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Confess and forsake your sins, and trust in Jesus alone for your eternal salvation.”
Do you agree with these or not? If you don’t, that’s great. If you do, you do believe that we must do something to be saved.
I have never said that saving faith is believing any old thing about Jesus. I’ve said several times that we must believe that Jesus is the Christ and we must ask him to save us. 1 John 5:1 says: “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” This is either true, or it’s not true. Verses 10-12 say: 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
What do we about to believe about Jesus to be saved? We have to believe the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. We have to believe what the bible says about who Jesus is. If you don’t believe Jesus is the Christ, you don’t believe the testimony. If you dont’ believe Jesus died and rose again, you don’t believe the testimony. If you don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God, you don’t believe the testimony. If you don’t believe that Jesus is our passover lamb, you don’t believe the testimomy. If you don’t believe that God will give us eternal life if we put our faith in Jesus Christ, you don’t believe the testimony.
Mormons don’t believe the testimony. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe the testimony. Atheists don’t believe the testimony. Most people who call themselves Christians don’t believe the testimony.
Which is exactly what Matthew 7 is talking about. What claim do these lost people make as to why they should enter the kingdom? Their works! Their good deeds done in God’s name. Their prophecy in Jesus’ name. Their casting out demons. Their mighty WORKS. Any person who is placing his hope on his own works, as these men do, is not believing the testimony God has given His Son. They are no different than the original believer in works salvation–Cain, the “worker of the ground” whose works offering was rejected by God.
Going back to Matthew 10. You don’t prove that that passage is talking about salvation simply by stating that it’s about salvation. Nothing in the context of that passage seems to be about salvation, it’s about being a disciple. No one is worthy of salvation as you seem to agree. Some are worthy to be tools used by God, though. Titus and 1 Timothy 3 both lay out the qualifications for church leaders. Those that meet these qualifications are worthy to serve God in that way. Those that don’t, aren’t worthy. Certainly you don’t think someone has to meet the qualifications of Titus and 2 Timothy to be saved. Why would you think everyone is worthy to be a disciple? But salvation is a different matter. It’s given by grace to all who believe, not to those who are worthy, and thankfully so because no one would be saved.
You say my interpretation of 1 John 3 makes the rest of the chapter a nullity. I certainly don’t agree with you. I said, it’s a difficult book to grasp. But as I pointed out several times, 1 John affirms salvation by faith alone in numerous places. I also noticed that you didn’t address my point about verse 9. It says “and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” If you believe this is talking about believers’ flesh as well as their spirit, then ANYONE who sins at all is not born of God. That’s what it says, isn’t it?
As I said, I believe John is referring to the born again spirit of those who are saved. The spirit cannot sin. But the flesh is not changed at all when we’re saved. Paul talks about this in Gal 5. Vs. 16-17 say: But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Jesus also referenced the battle between the unregenerated flesh and the quickened spirit when he told Peter “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” If we live in the spirit, we won’t be living a worldly, ungodly life. If we abide in the flesh, we will, because the flesh loves to sin. In Romans 7, Paul says:
16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Paul says, when he sins, it is not he that sins, but his flesh. The real Paul, his spirit, doesn’t want to sin. This, I believe, is what 1 John is about.
There are only a few other possible constructions:
1. 1 John wasn’t inspired and shouldn’t be believed. (I think we both reject this out of hand.)
2. John is saying that believers cannot sin and if you sin, they you aren’t really a believer. However, this is in direct conflict with other parts of the book that I’ve mentioned previously. Also, this construction doesn’t leave wiggle room for people who sin, but don’t have a “lifestyle of sin” (whatever that is.)
The problem with this interpretation is that it directly conflicts with biblical examples of people who are saved that do sin. David in the OT is a plain example. Peter, in the NT being another. Also, this interpretation would be in direct conflict with Romans 7 and would make the many instances of commandments to live a holy life redundant, since a true believer COULDN’T live an unholy life. It would also be self-contradictory with passages in 1 John saying that if we say we have no sin we make God a liar, and advice on what to do if a brother DOES sin.
I can’t think of another construction of the book that is consistent with everything in the book. An interpretation that John is talking about a lifestyle of sin is completely at odds with 1 John 3:9 wherein it says a person borne of God CANNOT sin. Either a person borne of God cannot sin, or he can sin. It can’t be both ways, and to say John means only a “lifestyle of sin” doesn’t make sense if you believe such a person cannot sin.
Finally, the examples I noted of saved people who sinned were people who were born again. David is clearly saved, and in Psalm 51:12 he asks God to restore the joy of his salvation. How could God restore it if he wasn’t saved?
Lot was saved according to 2 Peter 2:7 because he was righteous. Saul was saved according to 1 Samuel 28:19. Peter was born again before Jesus’ crucifixion because Jesus told him in the Garden of Gethesmene that “the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (If Peter was not born again, his spirit would not have been willing…it would have been dead.)
Also, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Jesus made it clear in John 3. This is true for people in the OT, people in the NT and people today. In fact, Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for being a teacher of the law and not knowing that he must be born again to be saved. So, yes, David, Lot and Saul were born again. I would also argue that even under your ambiguous definition of “lifestyle of sin,” you’d be hard pressed not to say that Saul lived a lifestyle of sin. The day before he died, he was consulting a medium!
As Christians, we should be sorry when we sin and we should try to live a holy life. I’m not “okay” with a believer living a life of sin. The bible is very clear how God expects His children to live. Pastors should preach against sin vigorously. The question is not whether God approves of sin committed by a born again person (He doesn’t.) The question is, what must a person do to be saved? I say, believe only. You say, believe and “make Jesus lord of your life.” Then you say making Jesus lord of your life means you don’t live a lifestyle of sin. Am I misconstruing what you believe? If not, the gospel you believe is not the gospel of the bible. Eternal life is not a reward for our good life, it’s a gift given by God to those who don’t deserve it.
Romans 4 says: 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
As Paul says, if you’re working, you deserve your wages. If you receive without works, you receive a gift. You say that submitting to Jesus as lord isn’t works, but it clearly is. As I pointed out in my last message, the bible is clear that turning from sin is a deed or works, and obeying negative commands is “works of the law.” In what way can you define “submitting to Christ’s lordship” without requiring us to not do things he says not to do (which is works) and to do the things He wants us to (which is also works.)?
Query: if a man wants to be saved but he lives with and sleeps with his girlfriend, does he have to stop fornicating with her in order to be saved? If your answer to this is yes, you don’t believe salvation is a gift. You believe we must “do something” besides believe Jesus is the Christ to be saved.
One other question/request…I really don’t want to misstate your views. I’m curious what your response would be to the jailer in Acts 16. In other words, if someone asked you what he needed to do to be saved, what would you tell him?
I appreciate your thoughtful responses and willingness to discuss this issue thoughtfully. It’s clear that you place a high value on truth and place the ultimate authority with the bible. I’m never afraid to take a critical view of my beliefs and to hold them up to the truth of the Word. As I told you earlier (I think), until a year of so ago, I believed a version of “lordship salvation” for much the same reasons you seem to.
Josh
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You said in your previous message, that I or someone believes that repentance is “changing your ways” and “If a man can believe on Jesus Christ and not go to heaven because he hasn’t “done” something or given up something, then the bible is spouting lies.” I believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, and I’ve told you that. If you want to try to explain why you think repentance from sin is a work, that’s fine, but at least accurately represent what repentance is.
You said, in the comments of that video we were discussing that, “Repentance means turning from faith in anything other than Jesus Christ to faith in Jesus Christ.”
You believe that turning to faith in Christ isn’t a work, but that turning from sin is a work? Would you say that having faith in anything other than Jesus is a sin? If you say yes, your definition of repentance is a work, because you say people must turn from a sin.
Here’s what I believe: No human can believe in Jesus without God’s help (John 6:35-45, Matt 16:17). Similarly, we cannot repent, or do any other deed that is pleasing to God of our own accord (Romans 8:7). Nevertheless, we are all commanded to repent, and believe in Jesus along with not lying, stealing, etc. God grants repentance and faith in Jesus, and makes us born again. We can take no credit for believing or repenting, because it’s a gift.
Repentance is turning from going your way to following Jesus. It is joining sides with God against yourself. It is chaning your belief about your sin from thinking it’s okay to thinking it’s a sin against God. It is simply a change in belief about your sin, and is no more a work than believing in Jesus, and is part and parcel with believing in Jesus. This is what WOTM teaches about repentance, and it’s what every Christian I know who has thought about this believes.
Someone who is a Christian will bear the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of repentance, the fruit of righteousness, etc. If someone says they’re a Christian, but bring forth evil fruit, they’re not truly Christians.
If someone becomes a Christian, and goes on living with his girlfriend, he is a hypocrite, and not really a Christian. He doesn’t move out to become a Christian, he moves out because he is a Christian.
Here’s a question for you, I don’t know whether I’m missing your answer, or if you’re refusing to answer or what, but this is the 3rd time I’ve asked this. If someone says he truly believed everything on your list that you say he must believe, but months or years later becomes an atheist, and dies an atheist. Would you say he didn’t really believe everything on your list? Would you say he’s going to heaven no matter what?
Thanks,
Bill
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Thanks for your thoughts.
I’ll respond to your last question first because it’s the easiest to answer. The person you describe is going to heaven. If he has been born again by faith in Christ, he can never lose his salvation. John 5:24 says:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Notice the present tense of the verse: he HAS eternal life, not will have if he believes his entire life. If we have eternal life when we believe, how could that life be less than eternal? Jesus used the imagery of being “born again” for a reason, and I believe that at least part of that reason is because salvation is a one time thing. If we are adopted by God, is God going to to turn His back on his own child if he becomes rebellious or unbelieving? I don’t even know any human father that would do that.
The people you describe are those in Luke 8:13 in the parable of the sower. Jesus said: “And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.” These people believe, and they are saved, but they fall away when they are tested. Compare that with verse 12: “The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” The word is snatched from these people before they believe, because if they did believe, they would be saved. Believe=saved every time in the bible.
I actually think most believers are verse 13 believers (or verse 14 who don’t mature due to the cares of this world whose fruit does not mature.) They will get to heaven by the grace of God, but they are unfruitful and live sorry, wasted lives.
I’m still confused about whether you agree with WOTM or not. The statements that I copied from their website don’t say to change your mind about sin (which isnt what repentance means), they say to forsake your sin, or to turn from sin (which is also wrong.) The bible is clear that if we claim to have no sin we make God a liar. As I said before, anyone who believes he doesn’t have any sin can’t call on the name of the Lord for salvation because he doesn’t believe he needs salvation. But admitting we’re a sinner is a different thing than deciding we won’t sin anymore. I believe a man could believe in Christ for salvation and choose to continue living with his girlfriend. He doesn’t have to be willing to give up anything to be saved, except his unbelief in Jesus as the sole way to be saved.
Nothing in the bible says that everyone who believes on Christ for salvation will suddenly and automatically start living a sinfree or low-sin (?) life. In fact, I’ve cited several examples in the bible of people who did do wicked things after being saved. Why would the NT be filled with admonitions to live holy and righteous lives if we automatically lived holy & righteous lives because we’re born again? Why would Paul, in two epistles, lay out criteria for choosing elders and deacons if ALL believers will automatically start living godly lives? Paul’s criteria isn’t based on work experience, intelligence or personality type; it’s based on whether the candidate is living a godly, spiritually mature life and demonstrating the fruits of the spirit. So, can a person who has believed unto salvation choose to live for God or not?
The fruit of the spirit is produced by walking an the spirit as opposed to the walking in the flesh. In Gal. 5 (an epistle written to believers), Paul says: But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. If the fruit of the spirit is evident in every believer because God has given every believer repentance (as you define it), why does Paul encourage the Galation believers to walk by the spirit?
You say that Repentance is turning from going your way to following Jesus. Then you say it is changing your belief about your sin from thinking its okay to thinking its a sin against God. But those are two different things (neither of which is accurate, in my opinion.) In what way is following Jesus not a work? We cant follow Jesus with just our minds, we must follow with our lives. This is what is required of a disciple. This is what God has called believers to do. This is not what is required for salvation. If you say salvation is by faith alone, you cannot at the same time say that it also requires man to follow Jesus.
Nor does the bible teach that repentance is changing your mind about sin. As I said before, if we claim to be without sin we call God a liar. We also cant believe on Christ as our savior if we dont think we need a savior. But, despite what Paul Washer says, nothing in the bible teaches that we must have some new attitude towards sin to be saved. We arent more worthy of being saved because we feel really, really bad about the bad sins. We dont have to make some impossible-to-keep resolution to stop sinning, which is destined to be broken because of our unredeemed flesh. Once again, going back to John 4, Jesus didnt tell the Samaritan woman to change her mind about her sinful condition in order to be saved. He told her if she acknowledged Him as the Christ and asked Him, he would save her. Do you really believe that Jesus wouldnt save that woman if she acknowledge who He is and asked Him to if she didnt give up her sinful relationship?
Also, consider the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11. Cornelius was a gentile and a devout man who feared God, gave alms, and prayed continuously. However, he wasnt a born again believer yet. God sent Peter to Cornelius. While Peter was preaching to Cornelius and his friends and family, they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit, then baptized by Peter. In Chapter 11, Peter gives an account to the Jewish Christians about what had happened. They were astonished and verse 18 notes their reaction: And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
The point is this: read chapters 10 and 11 and find anything that indicates that Cornelius and his friends and family had a change of mind about sin. Peter wasnt preaching about sin, he was preaching about Jesus and telling them to believe! The last thing he said to them before they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit was: To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (verse 43.) He never once told Cornelius to change his mind about sin, or to turn from his sin, or to repent of his sin. He told him to believe. When Peter recounts the story in the next chapter, the believers say that God granted the gentiles repentance that leads to life. In other words, the fact that the gentiles were able to believe on Jesus Christ was the repentance that leads to life. NOTHING in the passage suggests that all those gentile believes suddenly had a change of mind about sin.
As to your other points. I agree that we have no righteousness in our own accord. I agree that no one can come to God unless he is drawn. But dont forget the fact that God has drawn everyone. John 12:32 says: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. And 2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
So if man no role in choosing to believe or not, how do you reconcile those verses? God draws everyone, and God does not want any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. Can man somehow thwart Gods will? Of course not. God does not choose who believes. Further, even though God can reveal himself to man (as in Matthew 16), man may not believe. Judas saw the same miracles, for the most part, that Peter did. Yet Judas did not believe and Peter did. It is true, of course, that God will harden mens hearts to the truth, but the bible doesnt teach that God makes anyone believe.
Finally, turning from unbelief to belief isnt works, its faith. In multiple places in the bible, faith is juxtaposed to works as an opposite. When I say that turning from sin is works, its not the action verb turning that makes it works. Its the fact that turning from sin means an effort to obey the law for reconciliation with God which makes it works. Choosing to believe on Christ isnt making an effort to obey the law to be saved, its an acknowledgement that we CANT obey the law and we CANT earn forgiveness by mending our ways.
Sorry for all the grammatical errors and awkward sentences. Ive been busy the last few days so I stayed up too late to write this response!
Josh
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Its apparent that you believe someone can believe Jesus is Lord, and be saved, but yet live with Satan as the Lord of their life. That is preposterous hogwash. Whether you deny the Lord in your own life is between you and God, offering any type of assurance to others who deny the Lord is extremely serious. You are an antinomian. That is a heresy spoken of in the New Testament:
Jude 1:4 says, For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Ephesians 5:3-7 (verse 6 in particular) warns Christians not to be deceived with the empty words of one who teaches antinomianism.
God sustains Christians to the end (1 Cor 1:8, 1 John 2:19). An atheist has fallen away, and if he dies an atheist, he will end up in hell. We approach a Christian who sins according to Matt 18. Approach them one on one, with a witness, and then bring them before the church. If they don’t repent, they are to be treated as a pagan. Do you think Jesus would want us to treat a fellow believer as a pagan?
I agree with WOTM, and you quoted their website, and they say repentance is turning from sin. I agree completely, but that is not work. Turning from sin isnt the same thing as changing your life.
I haven’t seen your long list of people in the New Testament who have gone on living lives of sin. I can’t even think of any. Born again means raised from death to life by the Holy Spirit. It is not necessarily the equivalent of being saved in the Old Testament, even though it is in the new.
New Testament believers have the Holy Spirit, which doesn’t seem to be the case in the Old Testament except for a few specific instances. Ezekiel 36:26 seems to be a prophecy of the whole born again analogy, and not something that was a current reality for the OT. I’m not sure Peter was born again until after the day of Pentecost.
I don’t buy your verse about Saul at all. Joining Samuel doesn’t mean necessarily joining him where he is, but joining him in death. I believe Saul is in hell. David repented from his sin, and didn’t live a lifestyle of murder and adultery, even though those were heinous sins.
Concerning Galatians 5, Christians live by the Spirit. If someone lives by the flesh, they arent born again. In verse 18, it says, “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Christians arent under the law.
Also, if they’re not led by the spirit they aren’t sons of God (Romans 8:14), and they will commit the sins of the flesh. Romans 8:9 says, “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact(Q) the Spirit of God dwells in you.(R) Anyone who does not have(S) the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” This is opposed to those who are in the flesh (Romans 8:7-8). Those who are in the flesh are hostile to God and cannot please God—they arent Christians.
Following Jesus is a synonym for believing and salvation. No one can be saved without following Jesus (John 8:12).
God hasnt drawn everyone. I think your problem is that you take a verse and run with it, and draw all kinds of conclusions about it without harmonizing it with the rest of the Bible. Unfortunately, you havent even done that much with John 6:44, which says, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
1.No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.
2.The one who the Father draws will be raised up on the last day.
Here are the obvious conclusions. NO ONE can get saved without the Father drawing them. EVERYONE that the Father draws will be saved. The Father chooses whom He will draw, and saves that person. This isnt dependent on any action by the person involved; it is strictly the Fathers decision. You dont have to like this, but it is what Jesus taught.
Whatever you want to believe about John 12:32, its 6 chapters away from John 6, in a completely different context. You cant jump around connecting words as you please. Everyone who is drawn will be saved, so we know it doesnt mean that Jesus draws everyone in the same sense as the Father draws people in John 6.
2 Peter 3:9 is often misapplied, because people like to read one verse, and take it out of context, mostly because they want it to say a certain thing. This chapter is talking about God delaying the judgment so that everyone will come to repentance. If Jesus had returned in 1980, I would have gone to hell, because I hadnt yet come to repentance. Mercifully, Hes gone on delaying the judgment, so that all the elect will come to repentance.
Our ideas have consequences. Please make sure to get this straight. Im not interested in any further conversation.
Bill
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Once again, instead of addressing the points I made, you build a strawman to knock down. Not sure why it took a dozen paragraphs to say you don’t want to continue the discussion, but I respect your wishes. Let God be true, but every man a liar.
Josh
