I was involved in a pretty interesting exchange with another commenter (“Zack Ford”) over on Brad Cooper’s blog last week. The original post by Brad Cooper asked for opinions about whether someone could ever be beyond the point of repentance. I responded to one of the comments and we had several cordial posts and counterposts. We never agreed totally, but I did appreciate the other poster’s willingness to be open to other points of view and his submission to the authority of the bible.
Since the discussion was in the comment sections of the other blog, I copied and pasted it here for anyone who is interested. (I cut out the original proposition which was on an ancillary issue to focus on the discussion of repentance and salvation.) Here it is:
Repentance as required for salvation has nothing to do with “turning from our sins” or submitting to Christ’s “Lordship.” All people at all times have been saved in one way…by believing on Jesus Christ. Salvation is not by “turning from our sins” or turning over a new leaf or feeling really sorry for your sins. It’s by humbling yourself like a child and trusting in the blood Jesus Christ, plus nothing, minus nothing. Repentance in the gospel means giving up your false hope of salvation for the true hope in Jesus Christ.
Zack Ford
“Repentance as required for salvation has nothing to do with ‘turning from our sins’ or submitting to Christ’s ‘Lordship.’ All people at all times have been saved in one way…by believing on Jesus Christ”???? What? What kind of repentance is required if it is not the repentance that has to do with turning from our sins? The very act of believing in Jesus as Savior is repenting of our sins…first and foremost being that of unbelief.
And it just dawned on me by your statement that you believe you can have one submitting to Christ as Savior without Christ as Lord..right? That’s another whole issue for another time.
By the way, I’m with the other guys about not wanting to get into a serious debate or argument. However, I do think it is great for healthy discussions, especially with conflicting views, in order to learn from each other and figure out together the great truths of Christianity. Just wanted to throw that out there.
might i interject— i believe josh’s point to be that not every act of repentance leads to salvation— [which Scripture supports]–
But having said that… every True Salvation is coupled with a Repentant heart…
reminds me of geometry— “Every Square is a Rectangle… but not every Rectangle is a Square”—
Zack Ford
Completely agreed.
No debate necessary. But you should check your assumptions. Repentance does not mean “turn from sins”; it means a change of mind. Salvation is a gift of God to all who believe. The ONLY prerequisite to salvation is belief on Jesus Christ. The phrase “repent of sins” is not found anywhere in the bible (unless you use a non-literal version that editorializes it in.)
I don’t believe we must submit to Christ as Lord to be saved. We SHOULD, of course, and God will chastise His children in this life if we don’t. But, salvation comes from faith, not works. Are you saying someone could believe that Jesus is the Christ…that He is the Son of God who died and rose again and offers the free gift of eternal life to all who believe…and NOT be saved because he didn’t live for God? That’s works salvation.
In John 4, when Jesus met with the Samaritan woman at the well, He told her “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” This was a woman who had been married 5 times and was living in sin with a man she wasn’t married to. Yet Jesus told her that if she ‘asked’ he ‘would’ give her living water (salvation). He didn’t say, if you ask (and repent of all your sins and move out of this sinful relationship), she could have the free gift of salvation.
Zack Ford
Luke 3:8a – “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance.”
Acts 26:20c – “that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.”
Acts 2:38 – “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”
Luke 24:47 – “and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Acts 26:18 – “to open their eyes, so that they may TURN from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”
Here in this last Acts verse we see that this turning from darkness to light is the predecessor to receive forgiveness of sins.
Okay..so I had to just put some Scripture first. First of all, starting at the beginning, the number one dictionary in the Meriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary for “repent” is “to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life.” That pretty much sums it all up. You are correct that the only prerequisite to salvation is belief in Jesus. However, as a said before, is not that new belief in Jesus indeed repentance from the sin of unbelief? Although the bible doesn’t say “repent of sins,” it does say “repent and believe.” If it is not referring to sins then what are we to repent of and believe??
As for the whole Jesus as Lord thing, you asked the question about someone believing in Jesus and not being saved b/c he didn’t live for God…I do not believe in works salvation, but I do believe that with true faith in those things that you listed about Jesus comes true repentance, which leads to fruit. Just look at Matthew 7:13-21…Jesus compares the 2 different trees and then ends it by saying that not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord will enter heaven…only him who does the will of the Father! How much clearer can it get. Call it works salvation or not…the principle is still the same…with true repentance and faith in Jesus comes true life change…the old self is gone and the new self put on.
As for the woman at the well story, I’m not quite sure what you’re asking…her even wanting the living water instead of her own water is turning away from the old water that she used to seek. What about John 8…the story of Jesus and the prostitute? He says at the end of it all in v. 11 “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
What are some Scripture references for the statement in your first paragraph that we can believe in Jesus and all that he offers us, without repenting of our sins and turning from our old life in sin to our new life in Christ? And how do you explain Matthew 7:13-21?
Repentance and “Repenting of your sins” is not the same thing. I think it’s a mistake to let the dictionary guide your theology, especially about something as important as the way of salvation.
I’m glad the first verse you quoted was from the preaching of John the Baptist, whom Jesus said was the greatest man who ever lived. In three of the gospels, John is quoted as preaching on repentance or baptizing with a baptism of repentance. We agree there. However, where we disagree is what the meaning of “repentance” is. You go to the dictionary; I go to the bible. Acts 19:4 says that “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, TELLING THE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE WHO WAS TO COME AFTER HIM, THAT IS, JESUS. (Sorry for the all caps, I don’t know how to bold or italicize.) According to Paul, repentance means to believe on Jesus, as opposed to trusting in something else to try to reconcile ourselves with God.
Acts 2:38 – “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”
In this passage, the meaning of repentance is, once again, turning from unbelief into belief. If you read that verse in context, Peter is preaching about how the Jews refused to believe. What verse in the rest of Chapter 2 deals with “sin” other than not believing in Jesus Christ? Was he preaching against lust or stealing or greed or profanity or any other sin? Furthermore, that verse is not even the presentation of the gospel in that sermon. That is found in verse 21: “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Luke 24:47 – “and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Once again, I don’t deny that we must repent of our unbelief to be saved. I just don’t agree that repentance means “turning from our sins.” This verse doesn’t support either position and repentance is defined elsewhere in the bible.
Acts 26:18 – “to open their eyes, so that they may TURN from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”
Acts 26:20c – “that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.”
I don’t disagree that repentance means turning to light from darkness. I don’t agree that the light is our good works or our turning from our sins. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. In John 1, Jesus is called the light of men. Every false version of the gospel is darkness.
In the bible, lots of men who were saved committed deeds much more wicked than some of us will. David committed adultery and murder, and he asked God to restore the joy of his salvation (not restore his salvation which he had and could never lose.) Who was David’s lord when he committed those wicked sins? Lot loved the wicked city of Sodom so much that he had to be literally dragged out by the angel. King Saul lived a life of wickedness at the end of his life wherein he tried to kill David for no reason and even consulted a witch. Where was his fruit?
The point of the story in John 4 is this: Jesus told this sinful woman who had not repented that he would give her living water if she turned from her sins. No, that’s not it. If she felt really sorry for her sins? Nope. If she decided to become a Christ follower? Nope. He would give it if she asked.
Matthew 7:13-21 is talking about the gospel. It is not an easy thing to put all our trust in Jesus Christ. Man has an inherent desire to make his own way. Cain refused to believe God and tried to reconcile himself with God with the works of his own hands…the crops that he had produced. If your faith is in your own turning over a new leaf or turning from your sin, you make the same mistake. Salvation is for all who believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
I’m glad you bring up John 7:21. Why does Jesus reject those people in verse 22? What claim did they make to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Their own works: their prophesying; their mighty works; their casting out demons. Jesus said, Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not beleive is condemned already because….he didn’t repent of his sins? no. …he didn’t make Jesus lord of his life? no… because HE HAS NOT BELEIVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY SON OF GOD.
That’s why Jesus said we must become like children to enter into God’s kingdom. Children don’t work for their sustenance. They trust in their parents completely. When we work for our salvation, we’re calling God a liar. 1 John 5.
Believers are called to live holy lives and we should strive to avoid sin. But that is not what is required for salvation.
Zack Ford
Good points on what repentance is and the repentance that is required for salvation. I halfway agree with you. I still think that there is a level of change in the heart and mind that gives rise to new God-centered, Christ-exalting behavior when we are given a new heart and are given the free gift of grace and faith. However, I do see your point of the repentance required for salvation involving a turn from unbelief, and that alone. The only problem that I have with your points as a whole is that it gives rise to a very liberal, anything goes “Christianity.” It’s basically saying, “Okay Jesus, I believe that you died, raised from the dead, and paid for my sins on the cross, but I’m not really sorry for any of those sins and at this time I’m not ready to submit to you as the Lord of my life. I believe in what you did for me, but for me right now it’s just not powerful and important enough for me to change my ways or anything.” I COMPLETELY disagree with that. At the moment of salvation we are given a new heart…we are given the Spirit…we are given new desires and convictions. Will we sin? Yes..of course. But, we are now walking in a new life…in the narrow way. If we establish the fact that repentance as required for salvation involves repenting from unbelief and turning to belief in Jesus, then now let’s look at Luke 3:8. He says, “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance.” So with our definition of repentance, Luke is telling us that since we have turned from this unbelief to belief in Jesus, then we are to bear fruits within that belief…or what about Romans 1:5, where Paul tells us that we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. With the arguments that you have been presenting, we can just have the faith and then it’s just kind of up to us whether or not we want to have the obedience that goes with it. That’s not true at all!
As for the idea that we can submit to Jesus as Savior and not as Lord, I implore you to refer to some of John Piper’s articles on “lordship salvation.” Now before you attack me for referred to a man’s thoughts, I do not submit to those thoughts and arguments as truth before I refer to Scripture by any means…BUT I do believe that we can learn innumerable things from the more experienced and older Saints that God has used for His kingdom, which is what I do with John Piper. I think that saying that Jesus is Savior and not Lord is absurd. What of all the instances where Paul refers to Jesus Christ, OUR Lord? What about Romans 8:39 where Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord? If one is to find comfort in the verse, he must put himself to be included in the word our…which would mean that Jesus is his Lord.
Furthermore, Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” It is a frightening thing, in view of this verse, to tell people that they do not have to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. That is just the opposite of what scripture says.
Finally, I take it that you are saying that people can actually be presented with the claims of Christ as Lord and say, “No, I don’t want to bow to him as Lord, and I do not accept his claim on my life as authoritative Guide and Teacher,” but I am still be saved (if they believe that he died for them!). If that is what you are saying, then there is a great difference between you and I indeed. And not only between you and me, but between you and centuries of Christian orthodoxy.
I appreciate your thoughts. Please understand that I’m not a libertine. I absolutely believe that believers are called to live lives of holiness and to root out sin in our lives. The bible isn’t only about how to be born again. It has lots of instruction for how believers should live their lives. The bible plainly teaches that God will chastise His children and there are biblical examples of God chastising believers even unto physical death. That’s a pretty scary thing if you take it seriously, as I do.
That said, salvation is not based on our lifestyle, nor are we required to give up any sin to be saved. What we ARE required to give up is our own attempts at pleasing God with our own righteousness. When people believe they are saved by their own turning from sin or repenting of sin, they aren’t putting all their faith and hope in Jesus Christ; they are putting their faith and hope in their own good life. If salvation is truly a free gift, as the bible says it is, we contribute nothing to it.
The bible frequently talks about Jesus as our passover lamb. If you get some time, reread those chapters in Exodus about the original passover. The only people spared when the death angel passed by were those who had applied to blood to the door. That was the only criteria. I’m sure there were good, decent Egyptians who suffered the death plague, and I’m sure there were wicked, ungodly Israelites that were spared because they had applied the blood. The only criteria for salvation through Jesus Christ is whether we have believed. There are, no doubt, people who are saved and going to heaven who live worthless sinful lives, just as there are people doomed to hell who live “good” lives (in human terms, of course.)
Jesus is the Lord of all, whether we acknowledge Him as such or not. The bible says that one day EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess it. As you know, there are many people who teach “lordship salvation,” and I myself believed a muddy version of it at one time. It appeals to our human desire to “feel” holy, which is really just our desire to make our own way for salvation. I cited three examples of men who were saved but obviously didn’t make Jesus their “lord” during some or all of their lives. I can promise you that I am my own “lord” on a regular basis, and I suspect if you’re honest with yourself, you are too. But I have no doubt that I have been given eternal life because I have believed God’s record of His Son and have put my faith in Him. If we had to make Jesus our lord to be saved, no one could ever truly know if he was saved. But John 5:24 says we can know for sure: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
People who advocate lordship salvation invariably quote part of Romans 10:9, but rarely quote Romans 10:10-13, which complete Paul’s thought. Those verses say: For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Once again, Paul is teaching salvation by belief, not works.
I do understand why it seems wrong that a man can be saved and yet choose to sin. I, like most people, can identify with the older son in the parable of the prodigal son. But the fact is, none of us “deserve” to be saved, even the most penitent, godly among us.
Also, understand that the bible teaches a distinction between being saved and being led by the Spirit. Why would we expect a believer who studies his bible, prays, attends a good church and serves God to have the same fruit as a believer who doesn’t do those things? Jesus addressed this issue in the parable of the sower in Luke 8. He later told the disciples what the parable meant:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
The only ones who aren’t saved are the first because the didn’t believe the word. The third group is saved, but unfruitful because of the care of this world. They have fruit, but it doesn’t mature. Unfortunately, I think most believers are in this category.
Finally, I disagree with you that salvation by faith alone differs from centuries of Christian orthodoxy. Read a bit about Charles Finney who was the instigator of the protestant version of the “repent of your sins to be saved” false doctrine. I will grant you that the Catholic church has taught that doctrine for centuries, though. Still, you don’t get more orthodox than Jesus, John the Baptist and Paul, who are the only “theologians” I have referred to. Don’t take my word for it, study it for yourself (which you seem to be doing). There is no time better spent in this life than making sure we have a correct understanding of the plan of salvation.
Zack Ford
I completely agree with you’re last sentence!
I think we are coming around to almost the same point, only from different angles, if that makes any sense. I completely agree that salvation is by faith alone..the only difference that I have is that I think that within that faith is Jesus is a faith in Him as Lord. I by no means think that we can work our way to salvation…that’s heresy. I pretty much agree with most of the stuff you just said, but with all of that said we must keep in mind the parables that Jesus taught regarding who indeed is saved. Again, all we must do is look at Matthew 7:13-21. One can say that He believes in Jesus and His death and resurrection and all of that, but if you look at his life and do not see the fruits of that salvation, then I don’t know. It’s not my place to say one is not saved…that’s only God’s place. However, Matthew 7:21 scares me, especially thinking of many of the “church-people’ in today’s society.
Again, I completely agree with your last statement in saying that there is not better time spent in correcting our view of salvation. I have enjoyed the conversation and will think about some things, as I hope that maybe you will. I will close with the end of Philippians 2:12 – “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I pray that we will both do so.
Josh:
Thanks for the dialogue. I’m reposting it over on my blog (cartersvillelawyer.wordpress.com) because I think other folks might find it interesting/thought provoking and I appreciate your openness and submission to the authority of the bible.
We’ve pretty much talked it to death, but the last thought I’d leave you with relates to Philippians 2:12 which seems to trouble people a lot more than it should. Once again, you should read the context of that phrase which is part of a longer sentence. Bear in mind that Paul was writing to other believers and encouraging them to remain faithful even in the face of persecution. The whole sentence is: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Paul isn’t suggesting to the Philippians that they have more work to do to be saved; he’s telling them that since they have been saved, they need to get to work for the Kingdom. In other words, Paul isn’t presenting the gospel to them, he’s encouraging other believers to be good disciples. The verses immediately following 2:12-13 consist of practical advice for these believers.
It’s important to remember that we don’t HAVE to follow this advice for salvation. We’re saved by faith, period. But just as the angel told the disples to stop staring at the sky after Jesus ascended into heaven, we’re not supposed to stand around waiting for God to call us home. We’re to be fulfilling the Great Commission!
Thanks again for the great discussion! If you ever want to discuss anything else, shoot me an email.
