It’s not everyday that I’m called a liar and told “may God have mercy on [my] soul,” so this exchange was kind of interesting.  It was in the comments section on youtube.

Ha________:  So I must conclude that you are telling me that repentance is simply an option that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles preached. I must conclude that you are saying there will be people in heaven who never repented of their sins (hard to square with 1 Cor. 6:9). That is pure heresy, and I sincerely hope you are playing semantics with me and truly don’t believe that.

Me:  John the Baptist didn’t tell people to turn from their sins. He told them to believe on Jesus Christ. It’s there in Acts 19:4 if you want to let the bible form your theology. The bible says to “repent and believe the gospel,” not to “Repent of your sins and believe the gospel.” As I said before, you can’t simply add the words “of your sins” because those words aren’t there. It’s not a matter of semantics; its a matter of what the plan of salvation is. I say it’s faith alone.

1 Cor 6:9 supports what I’m saying. The ONLY way those people are in heaven is by claiming the righteousness of Christ. I’m not saying that believers shouldn’t strive to live holy lives. I’m saying that salvation is by faith alone and no one who believes on Jesus Christ will be condemned. Jn 3:18. “Whoever hears my word and BELIEVES him who sent me has eternal life.” Jn 5:24

“Whoever believes has eternal life.” Jn 6:47

It’s all about faith in Jesus Christ, not trying to live a good life

Ha________:  You miss the point. Paul says that you WILL work hard (live a holy life) as a Christian, yet it is not REALLY you, but God’s grace (1 Cor. 15:10)! I don’t claim that human effort saves, but the grace of God will enable you to live a holy life. The same grace transforms every Believer.

Me:  Once again, what scripture backs your claim that every believer will live a holy life? If we do so by God’s effort, why do you still sin? Is God unable to keep you from sinning, or unwilling? How “good” does a person have to be to be saved?

We SHOULD walk in good works as believers, according to Paul. Eph 2:10. But we don’t have to. God will chastise His children in this life. Heb. 12:6 God gives us power to resist sin and to serve Him in this life, but He doesn’t make us.

Ha________:  “1 Cor 6:9 supports what I’m saying. The ONLY way those people are in heaven is by claiming the righteousness of Christ.”

The passage says they will not be in heaven.

Me:  Wrong. Vs. 11: And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

These people could not enter the kingdom by their own righteousness no matter how sorry they were or how much they changed their life. Yet by faith in Christ, they were given the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21. Why did Paul tell them they would be “guiltless in the day of the Lord” if they aren’t in heaven? 1 Cor. 1:8

Ha________:  No, not wrong at all. As you said, the Christians there were no longer walking in those sins. What’s your point?

Me:  I didn’t say that.  I said their sins were no longer accounted to them. Their unrighteousness was exchanged for Christ’s righteousness. Do you believe that if they committed any of those offenses again they lost their salvation?

What is the plan of salvation, according to you?

Ha________:  “Do you believe that if they committed any of those offenses again they lost their salvation?”

No, but if they continue in them unrepentant (as a lifestyle), that proves they were never saved to begin with.

You are a truly exhausting person to talk to. I have given you abundant Scriptures that make it very plain that repentance is a must for a Believer, yet you have chosen to ignore them or explain them away. You are a liar, sir, if you claim that, for example, someone can live an openly licentious lifestyle and be in heaven unrepentant. Any “faith” a person claims is false. GOD WILL NOT LEAVE YOU WHERE YOU ARE IN YOUR SINS!!!!!!

Me:  Instead of making assertions, just back up what you’re saying with scripture. What scripture says we must repent OF OUR SINS in addition to believing on Jesus Christ to be saved? On what basis do you contend that “believe” doesn’t mean believe, but instead means to believe and turn from your sins? On what basis do you contend that “repent” means “repent of your sins?” Repent means to have a change of mind. Check the Greek; read the context. Repent means to trust the gospel, not dead works

Me:  I’ve listened to several Anderson sermons and I disagree with a lot of what he says, but I think it’s absolutely right about the false doctrine of “repenting of sins” for salvation. He does teach that we must know that we’re sinners in need of salvation. Why would we need a savior if we weren’t lost? What he does (rightly, imo) teach is that we aren’t required to give up any sin to be saved. Salvation is by faith, only, as it plainly taught throughout the bible.

Ha________:  What you and Anderson don’t seem to understand is the relationship between faith and works. Faith necessarily produces works. One of those works is repentence. Therefore, it is not wrong to assert that a person must repent in order to be saved. The repentence does not do the saving, but the faith granted as a gift of grace through the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS bring about immediate repentence.

Me:  What you don’t understand is that repentance doesn’t mean “turning from your sins,” nor does it mean being really sorry for your sins. Find one verse in the bible that says we must turn from our sins to be saved. What WOTM is preaching is a fake man-centered righteousness by changing our behavior, not the putting on the righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith in Him. If “repentance” is the effect of saving faith, why tell people that THEY must repent. It’s works salvation.

Ha________:

Matthew 4:17; 12:4; Mark 1:4,15; 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3,5; 15:7,10; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18, etc. etc. etc.

Have fun getting around those.

Me:  I didn’t say the bible use the word repent. I said the bible doesn’t say to “repent of our sins.” The fact that verses use the word repent does not prove that men must turn from their sins to be saved unless it’s clear from context. Which reference, taken in context, supports your claim that believing is not enough, that we must “repent of our sins” to be saved?

I’d be happy to debate or discuss this by message if you’d like. The youtube comments really limit discussion.

Ha________:  Back the truck up! I never said believing wasn’t enough! But what is belief, if not a life-changing transformation by the Holy Spirit. Don’t you believe Jesus when He said to repent? Do you not believe the apostles when they record that the Gentiles were granted repentance that “leads to life”? There’s no real debate to be had, unless it’s a debate whether you will take the Bible as your authority and not the doctrines of man.

Me:  Fine, ignore the question. The issue isn’t whether we’re supposed repent, this issue is whether repent (as it relates to salvation) means to “turn from sins.” Show me that in the bible.

What’s the plan of salvation? I say, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved. What say you?

I’m happy to discuss it. After all, you responded to my comment. But if you’re going to evade the issue, we won’t get anywhere. Show where repent and believe equals “turn from your sins.”

Ha________:  You’re the one that should be answering questions, seeing as you have no biblical support for your claim that repentance has nothing to do with salvation. But anyhow, I wholeheartedly agree that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ saves you! But what the heck do you think BELIEVING means??? Do you seriously think that as long as you oblige the facts of the Gospel (Jesus’ life, death and resurrection) that you can just ignore Jesus’ teaching and go to heaven? That’s not belief.

Me:  What’s your authority for that? Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. 1 Jn 5:1. Believe means believe. On what basis do you contend that “believe” means “turn from sin”? How did David turn from his sin when he killed Uriah? Had Peter turned from his sin when he denied Christ and snubbed the gentile believers?

Acts 19:4 defines repentance for salvation. Please give a scripture reference that defines repentance for salvation to mean “turn from sin.”

Ha________:  You can’t define a term using the term. But I see you can’t give me an explanation of what it means to believe. Do you not acknowledge that believing Jesus would mean believing Him when He commands people everywhere to repent?

Me:  Repent of what? Read Acts 17 instead of text-proofing it. Paul isn’t talking to the Athenians about their sin. He tells them to repent of their ignorance. He’s telling them to stop believing in false man-made gods and to put their faith in Jesus Christ.

Did Paul use the 10 commandments as a schoolmaster, or try to convince the Athenians that they were wretched? Did he call them out for lying or fornicating or stealing or lusting or coveting or drunkeness? He told them to believe right.

Ha________:  “He’s telling them to stop believing in false man-made gods”

which is a sin

Me:  I don’t disagree with that. They can’t believe that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God and also disbelieve at the same time. But that’s not what you’re saying, is it? You’re saying they also have to turn from their other sins. Are you saying that if they believed Paul and put their faith in Christ they’d still be lost if they didn’t give up the “other” sins?

Please, what do you think a person must do to be saved? Your gospel sounds pretty ambiguous.

Ha________:  It’s not my Gospel, but the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and you are a liar and are purposely misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I have said based on the Word of God. May God have mercy on your soul for your unbelief in Christ’s commands. You can do a lot of damage with the false teaching you promote. This is what happens when people turn from Christ and His word to the vain reasoning of man.

Me:  My soul is secure in my faith in Jesus Christ. You should repent of your dead works (Heb 6:1) and place your hope in Jesus Christ alone.

It’s interesting that you have yet, after numerous posts back and forth, done the one thing that I asked: show me ANYWHERE in the bible that says man must “repent OF HIS SINS” to be saved. You have not shown any scripture to support your false teaching that repentance means to turn from sins. You’ll never be able to; its not in the bible. Period.

I can tell you what the gospel is: believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” Acts 16:31. It’s clear and if you reject it, you reject the scriptures. You refuse to state your belief as to what the gospel is because you either don’t know yourself or because you know it isn’t backed up by the Word. If I’m wrong, just spell it out. There might be lost people reading this.

Ha________:  “There might be lost people reading this.”
Which is why I am discontinuing this now before you do more damage.

Me:  Gee, I’d think if you had the true gospel you’d be jumping at the chance to clear up any misconceptions I’ve made by quoting scripture. It’s pretty telling that you refuse to state what you believe someone must do to be saved.

Your ad hominim attacks don’t bother me. You’re discontinuing this because your theology isn’t supported by the bible so you’re throwing up your hands.

1.  I know a lot of things I could change to make my practice more profitable/effective.  I’m working on them, but I have a really hard time changing bad habits.  I guess most folks are like that, but it’s still really frustrating.

2.  Really understanding and believing the gospel has revolutionized my thinking about my life, church and the bible.  In the past four or five months, I’ve re-read (or read for the first time) at least half the bible.  It’s amazing seeing how God’s plan of salvation by faith alone is written throughout the entire bible, starting in Genesis and ending in Revelation.

3.  I’m really thinking about starting to do some door to door evangelism.  I’ve always thought that type of thing isn’t really effective, but I’m pretty sure I thought that mostly because I don’t really want to do it.

4.  I’m trying to figure out where I fit in as a volunteer over at Oak Leaf.  I used to be in charge of the ushers, but someone else wanted to head that up so I moved aside.  I’m thinking about taking a more active teaching role when our small group starts meeting again.

5.  I’m excited about the 6 year old World Series tourney that Micah will be playing in in a few weeks.  I had pretty much decided just to let him play on whatever teams drafts him next season instead of coaching myself again.  However, sitting on the sidelines watching him play instead of coaching has pretty much convinced me that I pr0bably should coach next season.  I really like being the one making the decisions.

I was involved in a pretty interesting exchange with another commenter (”Zack Ford”) over on Brad Cooper’s blog last week.  The original post by Brad Cooper asked for opinions about whether someone could ever be beyond the point of repentance.  I responded to one of the comments and we had several cordial posts and counterposts.  We never agreed totally, but I did appreciate the other poster’s willingness to be open to other points of view and his submission to the authority of the bible.

Since the discussion was in the comment sections of the other blog, I copied and pasted it here for anyone who is interested.  (I cut out the original proposition which was on an ancillary issue to focus on the discussion of repentance and salvation.)  Here it is:

Josh

Repentance as required for salvation has nothing to do with “turning from our sins” or submitting to Christ’s “Lordship.” All people at all times have been saved in one way…by believing on Jesus Christ. Salvation is not by “turning from our sins” or turning over a new leaf or feeling really sorry for your sins. It’s by humbling yourself like a child and trusting in the blood Jesus Christ, plus nothing, minus nothing. Repentance in the gospel means giving up your false hope of salvation for the true hope in Jesus Christ.

Zack Ford

“Repentance as required for salvation has nothing to do with ‘turning from our sins’ or submitting to Christ’s ‘Lordship.’ All people at all times have been saved in one way…by believing on Jesus Christ”???? What? What kind of repentance is required if it is not the repentance that has to do with turning from our sins? The very act of believing in Jesus as Savior is repenting of our sins…first and foremost being that of unbelief.

And it just dawned on me by your statement that you believe you can have one submitting to Christ as Savior without Christ as Lord..right? That’s another whole issue for another time.

By the way, I’m with the other guys about not wanting to get into a serious debate or argument. However, I do think it is great for healthy discussions, especially with conflicting views, in order to learn from each other and figure out together the great truths of Christianity. Just wanted to throw that out there.

B.CooP*

might i interject— i believe josh’s point to be that not every act of repentance leads to salvation— [which Scripture supports]–

But having said that… every True Salvation is coupled with a Repentant heart…

reminds me of geometry— “Every Square is a Rectangle… but not every Rectangle is a Square”—

Zack Ford

Completely agreed.

Josh

No debate necessary. But you should check your assumptions. Repentance does not mean “turn from sins”; it means a change of mind. Salvation is a gift of God to all who believe. The ONLY prerequisite to salvation is belief on Jesus Christ. The phrase “repent of sins” is not found anywhere in the bible (unless you use a non-literal version that editorializes it in.)

I don’t believe we must submit to Christ as Lord to be saved. We SHOULD, of course, and God will chastise His children in this life if we don’t. But, salvation comes from faith, not works. Are you saying someone could believe that Jesus is the Christ…that He is the Son of God who died and rose again and offers the free gift of eternal life to all who believe…and NOT be saved because he didn’t live for God? That’s works salvation.

In John 4, when Jesus met with the Samaritan woman at the well, He told her “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” This was a woman who had been married 5 times and was living in sin with a man she wasn’t married to. Yet Jesus told her that if she ‘asked’ he ‘would’ give her living water (salvation). He didn’t say, if you ask (and repent of all your sins and move out of this sinful relationship), she could have the free gift of salvation.

Zack Ford

Luke 3:8a – “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance.”

Acts 26:20c – “that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.”

Acts 2:38 – “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

Luke 24:47 – “and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Acts 26:18 – “to open their eyes, so that they may TURN from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Here in this last Acts verse we see that this turning from darkness to light is the predecessor to receive forgiveness of sins.

Okay..so I had to just put some Scripture first. First of all, starting at the beginning, the number one dictionary in the Meriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary for “repent” is “to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life.” That pretty much sums it all up. You are correct that the only prerequisite to salvation is belief in Jesus. However, as a said before, is not that new belief in Jesus indeed repentance from the sin of unbelief? Although the bible doesn’t say “repent of sins,” it does say “repent and believe.” If it is not referring to sins then what are we to repent of and believe??

As for the whole Jesus as Lord thing, you asked the question about someone believing in Jesus and not being saved b/c he didn’t live for God…I do not believe in works salvation, but I do believe that with true faith in those things that you listed about Jesus comes true repentance, which leads to fruit. Just look at Matthew 7:13-21…Jesus compares the 2 different trees and then ends it by saying that not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord will enter heaven…only him who does the will of the Father! How much clearer can it get. Call it works salvation or not…the principle is still the same…with true repentance and faith in Jesus comes true life change…the old self is gone and the new self put on.

As for the woman at the well story, I’m not quite sure what you’re asking…her even wanting the living water instead of her own water is turning away from the old water that she used to seek. What about John 8…the story of Jesus and the prostitute? He says at the end of it all in v. 11 “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

What are some Scripture references for the statement in your first paragraph that we can believe in Jesus and all that he offers us, without repenting of our sins and turning from our old life in sin to our new life in Christ? And how do you explain Matthew 7:13-21?

Josh

Repentance and “Repenting of your sins” is not the same thing. I think it’s a mistake to let the dictionary guide your theology, especially about something as important as the way of salvation.

I’m glad the first verse you quoted was from the preaching of John the Baptist, whom Jesus said was the greatest man who ever lived. In three of the gospels, John is quoted as preaching on repentance or baptizing with a baptism of repentance. We agree there. However, where we disagree is what the meaning of “repentance” is. You go to the dictionary; I go to the bible. Acts 19:4 says that “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, TELLING THE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE WHO WAS TO COME AFTER HIM, THAT IS, JESUS. (Sorry for the all caps, I don’t know how to bold or italicize.) According to Paul, repentance means to believe on Jesus, as opposed to trusting in something else to try to reconcile ourselves with God.

Acts 2:38 – “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

In this passage, the meaning of repentance is, once again, turning from unbelief into belief. If you read that verse in context, Peter is preaching about how the Jews refused to believe. What verse in the rest of Chapter 2 deals with “sin” other than not believing in Jesus Christ? Was he preaching against lust or stealing or greed or profanity or any other sin? Furthermore, that verse is not even the presentation of the gospel in that sermon. That is found in verse 21: “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Luke 24:47 – “and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Once again, I don’t deny that we must repent of our unbelief to be saved. I just don’t agree that repentance means “turning from our sins.” This verse doesn’t support either position and repentance is defined elsewhere in the bible.

Acts 26:18 – “to open their eyes, so that they may TURN from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sin and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Acts 26:20c – “that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.”

I don’t disagree that repentance means turning to light from darkness. I don’t agree that the light is our good works or our turning from our sins. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. In John 1, Jesus is called the light of men. Every false version of the gospel is darkness.

In the bible, lots of men who were saved committed deeds much more wicked than some of us will. David committed adultery and murder, and he asked God to restore the joy of his salvation (not restore his salvation which he had and could never lose.) Who was David’s lord when he committed those wicked sins? Lot loved the wicked city of Sodom so much that he had to be literally dragged out by the angel. King Saul lived a life of wickedness at the end of his life wherein he tried to kill David for no reason and even consulted a witch. Where was his fruit?

The point of the story in John 4 is this: Jesus told this sinful woman who had not repented that he would give her living water if she turned from her sins. No, that’s not it. If she felt really sorry for her sins? Nope. If she decided to become a Christ follower? Nope. He would give it if she asked.

Matthew 7:13-21 is talking about the gospel. It is not an easy thing to put all our trust in Jesus Christ. Man has an inherent desire to make his own way. Cain refused to believe God and tried to reconcile himself with God with the works of his own hands…the crops that he had produced. If your faith is in your own turning over a new leaf or turning from your sin, you make the same mistake. Salvation is for all who believe on the name of Jesus Christ.

I’m glad you bring up John 7:21. Why does Jesus reject those people in verse 22? What claim did they make to enter into the kingdom of heaven? Their own works: their prophesying; their mighty works; their casting out demons. Jesus said, Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not beleive is condemned already because….he didn’t repent of his sins? no. …he didn’t make Jesus lord of his life? no… because HE HAS NOT BELEIVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY SON OF GOD.

That’s why Jesus said we must become like children to enter into God’s kingdom. Children don’t work for their sustenance. They trust in their parents completely. When we work for our salvation, we’re calling God a liar. 1 John 5.

Believers are called to live holy lives and we should strive to avoid sin. But that is not what is required for salvation.

Zack Ford

Good points on what repentance is and the repentance that is required for salvation. I halfway agree with you. I still think that there is a level of change in the heart and mind that gives rise to new God-centered, Christ-exalting behavior when we are given a new heart and are given the free gift of grace and faith. However, I do see your point of the repentance required for salvation involving a turn from unbelief, and that alone. The only problem that I have with your points as a whole is that it gives rise to a very liberal, anything goes “Christianity.” It’s basically saying, “Okay Jesus, I believe that you died, raised from the dead, and paid for my sins on the cross, but I’m not really sorry for any of those sins and at this time I’m not ready to submit to you as the Lord of my life. I believe in what you did for me, but for me right now it’s just not powerful and important enough for me to change my ways or anything.” I COMPLETELY disagree with that. At the moment of salvation we are given a new heart…we are given the Spirit…we are given new desires and convictions. Will we sin? Yes..of course. But, we are now walking in a new life…in the narrow way. If we establish the fact that repentance as required for salvation involves repenting from unbelief and turning to belief in Jesus, then now let’s look at Luke 3:8. He says, “Bear fruits in keeping with repentance.” So with our definition of repentance, Luke is telling us that since we have turned from this unbelief to belief in Jesus, then we are to bear fruits within that belief…or what about Romans 1:5, where Paul tells us that we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH. With the arguments that you have been presenting, we can just have the faith and then it’s just kind of up to us whether or not we want to have the obedience that goes with it. That’s not true at all!

As for the idea that we can submit to Jesus as Savior and not as Lord, I implore you to refer to some of John Piper’s articles on “lordship salvation.” Now before you attack me for referred to a man’s thoughts, I do not submit to those thoughts and arguments as truth before I refer to Scripture by any means…BUT I do believe that we can learn innumerable things from the more experienced and older Saints that God has used for His kingdom, which is what I do with John Piper. I think that saying that Jesus is Savior and not Lord is absurd. What of all the instances where Paul refers to Jesus Christ, OUR Lord? What about Romans 8:39 where Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord? If one is to find comfort in the verse, he must put himself to be included in the word our…which would mean that Jesus is his Lord.

Furthermore, Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” It is a frightening thing, in view of this verse, to tell people that they do not have to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. That is just the opposite of what scripture says.

Finally, I take it that you are saying that people can actually be presented with the claims of Christ as Lord and say, “No, I don’t want to bow to him as Lord, and I do not accept his claim on my life as authoritative Guide and Teacher,” but I am still be saved (if they believe that he died for them!). If that is what you are saying, then there is a great difference between you and I indeed. And not only between you and me, but between you and centuries of Christian orthodoxy.

Josh

I appreciate your thoughts. Please understand that I’m not a libertine. I absolutely believe that believers are called to live lives of holiness and to root out sin in our lives. The bible isn’t only about how to be born again. It has lots of instruction for how believers should live their lives. The bible plainly teaches that God will chastise His children and there are biblical examples of God chastising believers even unto physical death. That’s a pretty scary thing if you take it seriously, as I do.

That said, salvation is not based on our lifestyle, nor are we required to give up any sin to be saved. What we ARE required to give up is our own attempts at pleasing God with our own righteousness. When people believe they are saved by their own turning from sin or repenting of sin, they aren’t putting all their faith and hope in Jesus Christ; they are putting their faith and hope in their own good life. If salvation is truly a free gift, as the bible says it is, we contribute nothing to it.

The bible frequently talks about Jesus as our passover lamb. If you get some time, reread those chapters in Exodus about the original passover. The only people spared when the death angel passed by were those who had applied to blood to the door. That was the only criteria. I’m sure there were good, decent Egyptians who suffered the death plague, and I’m sure there were wicked, ungodly Israelites that were spared because they had applied the blood. The only criteria for salvation through Jesus Christ is whether we have believed. There are, no doubt, people who are saved and going to heaven who live worthless sinful lives, just as there are people doomed to hell who live “good” lives (in human terms, of course.)

Jesus is the Lord of all, whether we acknowledge Him as such or not. The bible says that one day EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess it. As you know, there are many people who teach “lordship salvation,” and I myself believed a muddy version of it at one time. It appeals to our human desire to “feel” holy, which is really just our desire to make our own way for salvation. I cited three examples of men who were saved but obviously didn’t make Jesus their “lord” during some or all of their lives. I can promise you that I am my own “lord” on a regular basis, and I suspect if you’re honest with yourself, you are too. But I have no doubt that I have been given eternal life because I have believed God’s record of His Son and have put my faith in Him. If we had to make Jesus our lord to be saved, no one could ever truly know if he was saved. But John 5:24 says we can know for sure: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

People who advocate lordship salvation invariably quote part of Romans 10:9, but rarely quote Romans 10:10-13, which complete Paul’s thought. Those verses say: For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Once again, Paul is teaching salvation by belief, not works.

I do understand why it seems wrong that a man can be saved and yet choose to sin. I, like most people, can identify with the older son in the parable of the prodigal son. But the fact is, none of us “deserve” to be saved, even the most penitent, godly among us.

Also, understand that the bible teaches a distinction between being saved and being led by the Spirit. Why would we expect a believer who studies his bible, prays, attends a good church and serves God to have the same fruit as a believer who doesn’t do those things? Jesus addressed this issue in the parable of the sower in Luke 8. He later told the disciples what the parable meant:

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

The only ones who aren’t saved are the first because the didn’t believe the word. The third group is saved, but unfruitful because of the care of this world. They have fruit, but it doesn’t mature. Unfortunately, I think most believers are in this category.

Finally, I disagree with you that salvation by faith alone differs from centuries of Christian orthodoxy. Read a bit about Charles Finney who was the instigator of the protestant version of the “repent of your sins to be saved” false doctrine. I will grant you that the Catholic church has taught that doctrine for centuries, though. Still, you don’t get more orthodox than Jesus, John the Baptist and Paul, who are the only “theologians” I have referred to. Don’t take my word for it, study it for yourself (which you seem to be doing). There is no time better spent in this life than making sure we have a correct understanding of the plan of salvation.

Zack Ford

I completely agree with you’re last sentence!

I think we are coming around to almost the same point, only from different angles, if that makes any sense. I completely agree that salvation is by faith alone..the only difference that I have is that I think that within that faith is Jesus is a faith in Him as Lord. I by no means think that we can work our way to salvation…that’s heresy. I pretty much agree with most of the stuff you just said, but with all of that said we must keep in mind the parables that Jesus taught regarding who indeed is saved. Again, all we must do is look at Matthew 7:13-21. One can say that He believes in Jesus and His death and resurrection and all of that, but if you look at his life and do not see the fruits of that salvation, then I don’t know. It’s not my place to say one is not saved…that’s only God’s place. However, Matthew 7:21 scares me, especially thinking of many of the “church-people’ in today’s society.

Again, I completely agree with your last statement in saying that there is not better time spent in correcting our view of salvation. I have enjoyed the conversation and will think about some things, as I hope that maybe you will. I will close with the end of Philippians 2:12 – “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I pray that we will both do so.

Josh:

Thanks for the dialogue. I’m reposting it over on my blog (cartersvillelawyer.wordpress.com) because I think other folks might find it interesting/thought provoking and I appreciate your openness and submission to the authority of the bible.

We’ve pretty much talked it to death, but the last thought I’d leave you with relates to Philippians 2:12 which seems to trouble people a lot more than it should. Once again, you should read the context of that phrase which is part of a longer sentence. Bear in mind that Paul was writing to other believers and encouraging them to remain faithful even in the face of persecution. The whole sentence is: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Paul isn’t suggesting to the Philippians that they have more work to do to be saved; he’s telling them that since they have been saved, they need to get to work for the Kingdom. In other words, Paul isn’t presenting the gospel to them, he’s encouraging other believers to be good disciples. The verses immediately following 2:12-13 consist of practical advice for these believers.

It’s important to remember that we don’t HAVE to follow this advice for salvation. We’re saved by faith, period. But just as the angel told the disples to stop staring at the sky after Jesus ascended into heaven, we’re not supposed to stand around waiting for God to call us home. We’re to be fulfilling the Great Commission!

Thanks again for the great discussion! If you ever want to discuss anything else, shoot me an email.

I’m not a KJV only guy.  Actually, I rarely read the KJV, though I respect it as a very good translation of the bible.  My version of choice is the ESV, which is a literal translation that is much less stilted sounding than the NASB, which is my second version of choice.  Generally, I think it’s important to have a literal version of the bible as opposed to an interpretive one.

I have recently become convinced that the lots of churches are falsely teaching that a person must “repent of his sins” to be saved.  Many people (including myself until recently) believe that “repent” means to “turn from sins.”  I’ve heard many pastors say that repent means to “turn 180 degrees from your sins.”  This is wrong.  The only prerequisite for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ as the only payment sufficient for our sins.

Part of this epiphany stems from a more careful and thoughtful reading of my bible.  I’ve spent more time reading my bible in the last four months than the last four years.  Nearly every day I find something else in the bible about God’s free gift of eternal life that I had missed before.  It’s really exciting.

A side effect of this careful study has been a realization about how important a reliable translation of the bible is.  While I’ve always disliked the more interpretative versions of the bible because I thought they were “dumbed down,” lately I’ve been seeing how they change very significant doctrinal teachings, even those related to the gospel.

Here’s a great example.  The gospels tell about John the Baptist who was who “was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.’”  Matt. 3:3 (ESV).  The gospel accounts have John the Baptist preaching the following:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”  Matthew 3:2

⁴ John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.  Mark 1:4

³And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.  Luke 3:3

⁷He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ⁸Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. ⁹Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”  Luke 3:7-9

I have heard lots of people teach that John the Baptist was telling people to turn from their sins so they could get saved.  In fact, the non-literal versions of the bible actually editorialize that teaching right into the verse.  The Message translates the above verses like this:

His message was simple and austere, like his desert surroundings: “Change your life. God’s kingdom is here.”  Matthew 3:2

John the Baptizer appeared in the wild, preaching a baptism of life-change that leads to forgiveness of sins.  Mark 1:4

When crowds of people came out for baptism because it was the popular thing to do, John exploded: “Brood of snakes! What do you think you’re doing slithering down here to the river? Do you think a little water on your snakeskins is going to deflect God’s judgment? It’s your life that must change, not your skin. And don’t think you can pull rank by claiming Abraham as ‘father.’ Being a child of Abraham is neither here nor there—children of Abraham are a dime a dozen. God can make children from stones if he wants. What counts is your life. Is it green and blossoming? Because if it’s deadwood, it goes on the fire.”  Luke 7-9

So if you read The Message, the sermon John was preaching was that salvation comes from “life change,” not faith in Jesus Christ as the bible clearly teaches.

John was teaching “repentance,” but this “translation” is correct only if the meaning of the word “repentance” is life change/giving up your sins/repenting of sin.  So what was the “repentance” John was preaching?  Well, you can take The Message’s understanding of it, or you can take the Apostle Paul’s.  In Acts 19, Paul meets a group of John’s disciples who had never heard of Jesus.  They said they had received the baptism of John only and Paul told them the rest of the story.  Paul said:  “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”  Acts 19:4.  That’s right…according to Paul, repentance means changing your mind to believe in Jesus.  This is consistent, of course, with Paul’s teaching in Acts 17 when he told the Athenians to “repent” of their worship of false gods and believe in the true God.

So if The Message falsely editorialized John’s message in the gospels, at least a reader will see the truth when he gets to Acts 19, right?  Let’s see how The Message translates that verse:

“That explains it,” said Paul. “John preached a baptism of radical life-change so that people would be ready to receive the One coming after him, who turned out to be Jesus. If you’ve been baptized in John’s baptism, you’re ready now for the real thing, for Jesus.”  Acts 19:4 (The Message)

Hmm, there’s that life change thing again…  You’d think if that teaching was correct, God might have put it into the original manuscripts.  Either that, or maybe salvation isn’t based on our own “life change,” but on faith in the saving blood of the Son of God who died and rose again so that we can have eternal life.  Maybe our righteousness comes from what Jesus has done, rather than what we have done.  Maybe our own “life change” is the equivalent of Cain’s sacrifice of his own works for justification, which God flatly rejected.

“The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …

Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.”

SOURCE: Harry A. Ironside, from the sermon: What Is The Gospel?

I posted yesterday about how I thought the Marilyn Monroe sex tape story was bogus. Defamer.com joined in last night. Now the story is starting to pick up speed: http://www.enews20.com/news_The_Marilyn_Monroes_Secret_Sex_Tape_Hoax_07311.html

By tomorrow Drudge will be laughing at the media for buying this obvious hogwash, lol.